Queers of Time Podcast
Queers of Time Podcast
This Is a Good Christian Family Podcast
This episode contains spoilers up to ACoS.
And we're back with Ali Shields, from the Wheel Takes Podcast, to continue our discussion about tropes. How is the Wheel of Time TV Show handling tropes? What was done well, and what could be improved? What will they need to be careful about in future seasons?
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Intro and outro music by Julius H.
Hello, everyone.
James:Welcome to the Queers of Time Podcast.
Matt:I'm Matt.
James:I'm James.
Camille:I'm Camille.
Kat:And I'm Kat.
Matt:And this is a podcast to talk about all the gay stuff in The Wheel of Time.
Camille:Because we're gay and we like The Wheel of Time.
Kat:As always, we want to start with a thank you to our supporters on Patreon. We'd like to give a shout out to our amazing Feral Venerator of Siuaraine, Lurkz. Today, we're going to talk about how the Wheel of Time TV show is handling tropes, what tropes are being used in the show, some that are done well and others that aren't, as well as some future topics that we think that they're going to need to handle with care.
James:Now, we can absolutely talk about the show with just the four of us, but we wanted to have someone that knows a little bit more about the industry than we do, which is why we have a very, very special guest with us today. Please welcome Ali Shields to the Queers of Time podcast.
Ali:Thank you so much for having me. So happy to be here!
James:Insert canned applause here. All right. So to start this off, we talked a little bit about what tropes are in a previous episode. And I think we wanted to start off with what tropes the show is kind of already flirting with a little dangerously. Because tropes do serve a purpose, they aren't always bad, but at the same time, there are some that are negative and have negative connotations. What do we want to start out with?
Ali:I'm down for whatever you all wanna do.
James:I mean, let's go with the first one. The first one that I can think of in the first episode is obviously women in refrigerator, which is
Kat:Good old fridging.
James:Good old fridging.
Ali:Women just hang out in refrigerators, I don't know what the problem is.
James:Laila exists only to make Perrin's character more intricate and more interesting. And that's kind of a problem.
Kat:Just a bit.
Matt:I know some of like, the shows most ardent defenders have tried to find ways of justifying it or excusing it. But really, it's one of the mistakes that the show made that isn't excusable. I see no rationale behind it, I see no benefit from it. And it was just a bad choice all around, not necessarily the killing. But leaning into that trope.
Camille:I kind of disagree on that.
James:I understand their reasons for doing it. But they should have recognized it very, very early on as a trope. And I know suggestions were given for alternatives by people, and I get that those would be more difficult. But at the same time, you kind of have to talk about, you have to realize that killing off a woman for a man's development is really bad and really well known as a bad trope. But it makes- it worked, it just was bad.
Ali:Yeah, I mean, I think I think there's there's a lot of, there's a lot to unpack. Because on the one hand, yes, fridging very against it actively. It's not my favorite, for obvious reasons. I think I understand that they were in a bit of a pickle when it comes to externalizing Perrin's internal motivations, because they don't get to have a "Now let's dive into Perrin's head and hear what he thinks". And so having him have a complex relationship with violence that we can see, will externalize that 100%.
James:Right.
Ali:Get that. And I think the trouble therein is, is that, you know, the pilot could only be a certain amount of time. So they have to rely on relationships that are already going to be inherently high stakes. And there are very few relationships, short of a child, that are more high stakes than a spouse. My- so I understand why it happens. I understand why the trope exists in general, as a means of development as a means of raising the stakes because nothing is going to make a character more sympathetic or more, you know, conflicted than someone who has lost a spouse. So I do understand why that exists. I think always when it comes to tropes, the question has to become why are we doing it? What are we trying to say with this? Is the payoff worth it?
James:Right.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:And is, is this the only representation of this of this kind of person in the show? That is adhering to this trope. So that's where I kind of start and I'm always have the mentality of like your feelings about fridging or about colorism or about any of this stuff is completely valid as long as it is expressed appropriately, right? As long as we're not like sending death threats over Laila.
Kat:Yeah,
James:If anyone gets mad at anybody on this show after listening to this podcast, I will find you and I will- no Matt will find you and Matt will kill you.
Ali:Apparently, that's a thing but yeah. I mean, I understand why they did it. It's not my favourite.
James:It makes sense. It's effective
Ali:And I understand why they couldn't go with like Master Luhan because that's a relationship that would have to be established and explored in a way that you know, wife is kind of a shorthand. My proposal has always been as a potential alternative is like Paet the little brother.
Matt:Yeah, just kill his kid brother.
Ali:It's a boy. And it gets us out of the fridging conversation. But, you know, I do think they were in a bit of a tough- Perrin as a character is a tough character to write. I get why they went this direction. I appreciate that Laila is not the only female representation in this series. So, you know, I will give them somewhat of a pass because women, women do die. Women have to be allowed to die in this series. And sometimes it's it's women that we meet recently.
Matt:Yeah.
Camille:Yeah.
Ali:But you know, it's, it's about how thoughtful we're being about the presentation of our female characters in general. And whether or not the ends of that justify the means of whether or not we were we were able to do this in a way that honors that character, and its development. And I will argue that there's a lot of fridging in the Wheel of Time from where I am so far, in Perrin's plotline in particular. So my thought process is also that like potentially they moved up and
James:They got it out of the way now
Kat:Got it out of the way quick
Ali:And fleshed out and made more important the female characters that get fridged in Perrin's plotline. I mean, who the hell remembers Laya who is a character that totally gets fridged for his development in the Wheel of Time? So I will argue that they at least were trying to flesh out some of the plot lines that do eventually happen and then the women in those plot lines but yeah, again it's it's a sticking point for me always. And so it's not my favourite, I feel complex things about it.
Camille:So one one thing that I wanted to say regarding replacing with the brother. One thing that Perrin killing his wife does is that it also explains a bit his relationship, his future relationship with Faile. And his, especially his overprotectiveness with her which is something you wouldn't get if he kills a brother.
Ali:Right. I agree with that.
James:Hey, this is assuming Faile makes it into the show, which some of us are hoping does not happen.
Camille:I mean, no, it's gonna happen like...
Ali:It's gonna happen and they're gonna make you like her.
Camille:I'm sorry, I like her already. Like that reminds me of like, Ali, you made a Tiktok when you were reading the shadow rising about I think it was Perrin and Faile marrying, and then you're like, okay, now they've reached that stage, what the fuck is gonna happen to the rest of the series? Because you already feel like they've they've reached kind of the usual end game in a book. And I feel like the relationship between Perrin and Faile could take a bit more time in the show. And having this event as beginning with Perrin and his wife would explain maybe Perrin being not really into starting something new with someone else. Yeah. I'm kind of waiting to see what's gonna happen in future to see whether it was actually a good thing or not.
Ali:I think you're dead on about Perrin's eventual relationship with Faile and why he is so... I mean, this is my big pet peeve with Perrin, is that he at the same time is over protective of Faile and under protective of Faile, because he utilizes a lot of weaponized incompetence when it comes to the actual like day to day ruling of Emond's Field and things like that. He goes 'Oh well, I'm off with my buddies drinking, Faile's going to handle all of the all of the actual running of this town'. But the minute that Faile is doing things that are what she has been been taught to do, right, which is this espionage, you know, the she's a knife throwing Saldean woman and yet he's like she's so breakable. And I'm like she's not breakable, she has a lot of flaws but she has no shrinking violet
Kat:Breakable is not one of them.
James:I mean yeah if if she didn't have the plot armor that Perrin has or if Perrin didn't and have the plot armor that he has, Faile would survive longer than him.
Ali:Yeah no question. Oh no question she is incredibly smart. She is able to, in times of crisis, do really amazing things. I mean, she is a spy of Colavaere, she spies on Colavaere. She is a knife throwing, like awesome badass Saldean woman. She saves Perrin's ass at the Battle the Two Rivers, alright, and then he treats her like she can't open a pickle jar by herself. That just, that bugs the crap out of me. And I just go, there needs to be if I'm going to be on board with what that relationship dynamic is, there needs to be some kind of reason why he is the in in this 2022 time this over protective of this woman. And I mean, I get it, like my husband goes to the grocery store for too long and I start to get nervous, I get that. But like, we gotta, you know, it's the apocalypse, we got to realize that she's gonna be in danger just by association. If you don't want her to be in danger, don't marry her.
Kat:Exactly.
Ali:So that's my feeling. So yeah, that's kind of what I and, yeah I think by necessity, they're going to have to elongate that relationship. There's no way he's easily gonna marry.
Camille:Yeah.
James:I mean, he- the reason he like resigns himself is because he was told that that's who he would marry so if we get rid of the prophecy bit then that'll elongate it a lot. Cuz you have to build naturally, instead of Yes, you are fated to the falcon?
Ali:Yeah.
Camille:So that's a big issue of the books.
James:Yeah,
Camille:Prophecy. And uh-
James:I know, I want it to be like wrong. I want that prophecy to exist and to have it be, like, flawed and be awesome.
Ali:I think to have Laila's death be worth it to me, I think they're going to, I'm going to need to see where it goes to. For me, what drives what really bugs me about fridging is when it's like, you know, oh, she dies in the first episode or whatever, whenever she dies, and we're, we're sad about it, we want revenge, whatever. And then the character evolves away from that pretty quickly. And then it's about other things. And it's just this way of making this character immediately sympathetic, or what have you. But if it has lasting ramifications for him, and if, you know, she's popping up in the dream world or whatever, and wreaking havoc there, and she's a presence.
Matt:Yeah.
Ali:I have less of an issue with it, still not my favorite. Again, not my favorite. But if we can make that still remain a core tenant of of his motivations, and really give that character the grieving and the processing that and the presence that I think she needs to have, for that we are worth it- a worth it sacrifice, then I will then I will make peace with it.
James:Yeah.
Kat:I agree. I'm with you.
James:We can't mention Leila without also mentioning like, what a badass Helena Westerman was in the she was so fucking amazing.
Kat:She was so cool.
Ali:That's why I'm hoping I'm hoping she'll bop around in the dream world.
Kat:I hope so too. Yeah.
James:When you were mentioning the dream world, I thought about her, like I thought about Lanfear like using her as a guise in the world of dreams a couple of times, just to like fuck with people. And I'm like, that made me happy.
Ali:Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to potentially utilize her in the dream world. Especially, you know, post Hopper's death post, you know, like, I think there's ways to torment him with her. And I think smart forsaken would do that.
James:We don't have those.
Ali:They're gonna smart them up for the show I-
James:On the show they're gonna have to be a little smarter
Kat:They did it with the Whitecloaks. I have faith, they did it with the Whitecloaks.
Ali:Yeah.
James:The Whitecloaks are fucking terrifying.
Kat:Oh my god. Legitimately terrifying.
Ali:Forsaken are gonna be worse.
Matt:I just worried that in the show we're gonna have like the first Forsaken appear in like a cloud of steam and lava and shadow and then do the whole Mushu appearance. It's like this big shadow and then a little tiny dragon that no one takes seriously. Which worked for Mushu but oh much? I don't know. I'm going to wait and see.
James:All right, so we've talked about the badass Helena Westerman, Laila. Women in refrigerators, fridging. Very bad, but we'll see.
Ali:Yes.
James:Now let's talk about the one that we wrote the biggest thing about so it's probably going to take a little bit of conversation. Which is colorism and Kat, Do I just defer to you? Because you are our
Kat:Yes.
James:Our one
Matt:Our what James?
Kat:I'm the one, some might say, token?
Ali:Call them out!
James:Yes do I defer to you or do we cut this part so I don't get cancelled on Twitter.
Matt:Just because Kat is our token Canadian doesn't mean you have to point it out okay?
James:Look, if she wants to be from Canada, that's her choice. Like
Kat:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for respecting my choices. Thank you, I appreciate that.
James:I don't agree with them. But
Camille:Anyway,
Kat:So um, yeah, I wanted to talk about so I don't know that I would necessarily- trope doesn't completely feel like the correct way to describe this, but I can't think of any other category that it would fall into?
James:Racism.
Kat:Yeah, it's I mean, it it is. It's complicated. Colorism, for people who are not aware, colorism is and I can only really just as a disclaimer, I can only speak to my experience as a black woman. That's that's really the only experience that I can speak to. I know that colorism exists in other cultures with other ethnicities. But I'm speaking specifically as a black person. So just as a disclaimer, and also I mean, black Canadian, but yeah, black person. Colorism is essentially the thought that certain skin tones are better than others. And so there's there's a huge history in that you can if you go to Google type in colorism, you can go down a rabbit hole with all this stuff. It's very much there's a lot of internalized racism in it, there's a lot of white supremacy attached to it, it's there's a lot attached to it. It it happens in pretty much every area of your life. And so you will like you know, there are a lot of conversations, especially by black women, where they talk about being seen as less than women who are of a lighter skin tone. With dating, with getting jobs, with just like generally existing in society, it is a huge thing. And it's something that the black community, at least in in North America anyway, is still very much coming to terms with. And it hasn't quite yet admitted it to itself, I think in a lot of ways, that it's something that exists. And unfortunately, this is something that we also see happen in media, where you have, you know, you'll have yeah, there's diversity on a show, but you will see only mixed race women. Or you will see only women of a certain or men of a certain skin tone. And they're not of a darker complexion, because there's this sort of underlying current that people who are darker are less than, and so it's I mean, I if you're on Twitter, I'm sure you've seen the conversation surrounding this. Specifically with Wheel of Time. We have two fantastic actors playing Padan Fain, and...
Camille:Eamon Valda.
Kat:Thank you, Eamon Valda. Fantastic actors, they're perfect in their roles, I love them in their roles. And then of course, you have Marcus Rutherford playing Perrin, and you have Hammed playing Loial, but there's but it becomes problematic when the two black actors playing humanoid people and I'm specifying humanoid for a reason, because Loail is not, he's not classified as a human on the show. When the two dark skinned black men on the show, and there's Ihvon, but he is a minor character, the two main black characters on the show, they're both playing villains, which is problematic. It's this- this is where colorism tends to rear its ugly head. And then we don't have any dark skinned black woman on the show. Which I mean I am I was elated to see Zoe Robins cast as Nynaeve. Like specifically for me Nynaeve is I mean, she's my favorite character, to see her cast as a black woman was like, I something I did not think was possible. I did not think that was going to be a thing. But she is a lighter skinned black woman and that does not take away from her being black in any way, shape or form. However, there is you know, it may not even be I don't think in this case, it's intentional. I don't think it's intentional, but it is a thing that happens and you know, a lot of dark skinned black women, Viola Davis has talked about this quite a bit. You know, like it's a lot of other- Lupita Nyong'o has talked about this quite a bit, where they only have access to certain roles, because and you know, of course, people would never say it or actually, some people do in Hollywood will flat out say, well, you're too dark for this to be considered like a love interest, or you can be to be considered as the main character because there's this association with like, well, dark means evil. And that's, that's the association that people make. And the lighter you get, the more acceptable it is, the more palatable it is. And this is something that I, you know, I'm really passionate about, because I'm a dark skinned black woman, I would love to see women who look like me, that's, that's something that I would love to see, I would love that for, you know, younger, dark skinned black nerds, who are watching Wheel of Time, and you know, it's I would love to see them see themselves because it is it really does- it changes you. It really, really does. And so while I'm delighted with the obvious effort that the show has made, of being inclusive and being diverse, it's, you know, I can acknowledge that and also still say, like, there's there's some work to be done. And I hope that they're, you know, they're aware of this, if they weren't before, I hope that they're aware of this now, so that they can take that into account when they're casting roles for the future.
James:Right. And I mean, the role of Elyas has been confirmed, correct?
Camille:Yeah.
James:So, I mean, that will be some improvement. But we also don't know if he is going to be any more of a major character than Ihvon is currently. Like,
Kat:Right.
Camille:Yeah.
James:Because there were some casting announcements that were like, oh so cool they're gonna be a really big character. And then they're in there for like, two seconds. So
Kat:Yeah, this is the thing.
James:I agree. I think it's, I don't know, I think it's problematic. And I wish that they had paid a little bit more attention to it, I guess. Because really, the only two really dark skinned people are just literally, like, the worst kind of people on the show. They're the people we're supposed to hate.
Kat:Yeah.
James:And then also, the other dark skinned person is a monster? And I, I'm aware that Loial is amazing, and the purest thing in the entire world. But he looks, like people see him and they aren't familiar, and they're like, that's a monster. So it's difficult.
Kat:It's hard. And, you know, like, it's I don't, it's, it's a difficult thing, I think to understand, because I think some people get, like, they reached this point where like, they're like, well, there's diversity. What are you complaining about? There are black people on the show, what are you complaining about? Like, you're missing the point. You're missing the point. And it's, you know, I think understanding that only comes from being willing to listen and to learn, and to learn where the harm in that comes from, and to listen to black voices. Right? That's the only way you're going to learn. You know, again, I'm only speaking specifically about the black community. I know, I've talked to other friends who in the Asian community, who also there's, there's colorism, in that community, as well. And so, you know, there are discussions to be had there. But specifically for the black community, it's important to listen. And also it's important to do your own research. And so that's something I hope, you know, the people in charge of casting and whatnot for the show, I hope it's something that they're aware of if they weren't already and something they're going to do something about, you know.
Ali:I mean, I will say, I think that there's a very big misunderstanding somewhat in the community as to what is and what isn't legitimate criticism. There's certainly criticisms that are not legitimate, like, you know, the fact that we're casting brown people in the first place is not a legitimate concern, in my mind, and I don't think it should be in anyone's. This, on the other hand, is completely legitimate criticism. And it is completely possible to critique something that still has done good things. And that it is completely possible to critique something that you love, because I truly believe that all of us want the show to be welcoming to everyone and be inclusive, and be thoughtful, and well done. And I think that a lot of this is just doing your due diligence to make sure that it is doing the things that you want it to be doing.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:And that is not to say, because I've had somebody asked me, so we can't just we can't cast dark skinned black people as villains anymore. And I say no, it's about balance. It's about realizing, yeah, oh, that's what we're doing right now. That is an inclination that we're doing because obviously, those actors are amazing in those roles. Yeah, we're not going to take those roles away from them. But it's about examining, are there other things that we are doing to make sure that the only representation because representation really does matter? It matters a lot, that it's not just dark skinned black men in villainous roles, and light skinned black people being viewed as somehow superior morally, just due to the color their skin. So, that's important.
Kat:It is. Yeah. It's like, I mean, Ali, you're like, that's exactly it. It's, you know, it's- and it's also not that we're asking the show to just cast, any dark skinned black women that you see or any dark skinned black man that you see, that's not what we're saying, it's not- and it's definitely not a knock against the actors that are currently on the show. They're fantastic. I have had no issues so far with the casting on the show. It's fantastic. But it's I don't think there's anything, there's nothing wrong with saying I just want a little bit more thought, just just a little bit more thought a little bit more intention, I guess, put into it.
Ali:And I think more thought and intention is what makes things better. I just I when people are saying, Oh, well, that doesn't matter, I go, everything matters. Everything that works, we have to be very thoughtful about what messages we're sending, even if it's accidental. And we have to be thoughtful about the decisions that we're making, not just because it's the right thing to do, but it will make a better show. It just will. The more thought and intention you put behind the decisions that you're making.
Kat:Yeah. And you can tell like, I mean, you can tell when people are putting that thought and intention and like doing it in a way that's not like performative or anything like that. They're not just doing it, so that they can get pat on the back for it. They're doing it from like a genuine desire to do better. It shows and it's I'm, again, I'm mostly, I have only mostly positive things to say about Wheel of Time. And I think they've, they've handled a lot of things well. But you know, this is this is how you- this is how you improve you listen, and you do better.
Ali:Right. And I do think it appears that the creative team behind The Wheel of Time does genuinely want to do the work. And as I mean, they're willing to deal with the backlash of the decisions that they've made already. So I do have a lot of optimism about this being a particular critique that they would listen to. Granted, I know no one on the creative team, so I don't know for sure. But I do think that it seems like these would be critiques that they would listen to. So I'm very optimistic about the creative directions going forward in this regard. But you know, also we'll see, I want them to earn it.
Kat:Exactly. I don't want to give them credit too early.
Ali:No. But I'm optimistic that that they know the difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism.
Camille:Yeah.
James:I have one more trope that I didn't I think they didn't do super well, but it's kind of like a joke. So does anyone have any other serious ones?
Ali:Yes, I have one little like plea as it sort of piggyback in support of what Kat said. If black people are saying that this is what's happening, and this is their lived experience, please, I beg you, I understand wanting to defend the show and that you love the show. Please don't, in their comments, try to delegitimize what they've said, just put your listening ears on?
Camille:Yes.
Ali:It's not your place to tell them whether or not they're correct in that. They are correct, because it is their lived experience. Thank you very much.
Matt:Yeah. Some of the show defenders are a little too combative.
James:Rabid.
Matt:And rabid, yes.
Kat:They get a little- I mean, I've gotten into multiple discussions on Twitter about this, and it is fucking exhausting. It's exhausting having to explain this over and over and over again. And it's really not- I'm just gonna be I'm gonna be absolutely real here. It's not that fucking hard. It's not it's this is not hard to understand. If you weren't aware that colorism was a thing, that's fine. I accept that. It is it is a complex issue that only really impacts certain ethnicities in certain communities. I understand that. But once you become aware of it, it's not that hard to understand.
Matt:No.
Kat:It's really not.
Ali:I agree. 100%. I mean, yeah, I think it's one of those things where if you are pushing back on on this as an issue, you are not actually listening, and you're not actually learning.
Kat:Yeah. Yeah. And you need to examine why you're pushing back. What is the reason? Why is it?
Ali:Yeah, you're not actually in good faith, trying to understand, I think, yeah, and frankly, it's not black people's job on Twitter to educate you. Google it. Cause you need to learn more. Google it.
Kat:Maybe I should add that to my bio on Twitter. It's not my job to educate you.
Ali:It's not!
James:Yeah, that's always something with like, any kind of oppressed people. Everybody else thinks that it's their job to defend why they don't deserve to be oppressed. And it's like, okay, so that's just another form of oppression.
Ali:Yeah.
James:I mean, the number of times we've had to defend like queerness in The Wheel of Time on this podcast. Also shout out to Nick Duns on Twitter that douche.
Kat:Hi Nick!
Camille:Oh gosh
James:Hey Nick, we love you.
Kat:Hiiiiiiiii,
Camille:Fuck you.
James:Ali has no idea what's happening.
Ali:I have none.
Matt:I can't tell you what I hope happens because this is a family podcast.
Kat:This is a good Christian family podcast.
Camille:What happened basically, you remember Rafe made the "Ask me anything" back in July for Comic Con. And on one of his post, James basically asked him if he wanted to come guest on the podcast to talk about queerness. And some guy like a few days ago, which is like a month after that original tweet, just went like on a rant about why does it even matter to talk about queerness in The Wheel of Time. It's completely irrelevant, there's nothing there in the books and this kind of thing. And yeah, the Queers of Time account got its mentions a bit flooded for a few day
Kat:Yeah, it was a little chaotic.
Ali:Wheel Takes has lots of fun stories about things that people have said to us on the internet as well, which we can get into later. But-
James:Oh my god, no, podcasts read mean tweets.
Ali:Oh!
James:That should happen.
Ali:Ours have a lot of slurs in them, which is not fun. But
James:I'll read the ones that slurs on them for our podcast.
Ali:Ours have a lot of very, as a neurodivergent, very triggering language, which is nice. It was nice. Or as a woman, very triggering language. But yeah, you know, I think, yeah, I think those people tend to be trolling, looking for comments to make them angry and looking to make other people angry and ruin their day.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:And I think that is very sad.
Kat:What a sad existence that your only your only source of entertainment or pleasure is to try and make other people feel shitty.
Ali:Yeah, I think I think at a certain point, you know, we had some horrible things get said to us, which when we first started the podcast, I'm a very, you know, socially anxious person, I really want to make him like me. I really want everyone to be my friend. I was really nervous because I knew being a woman on the internet who's neurodivergent I just and queer. I just knew eventually, someone would say something. Right. And I would we would get hate eventually, just by virtue of being a woman on the internet. Right? Who has opinions. And we did! It inevitably happened, right? And I think what was a weird gift about it is that I realized that a, these are the people I want to make angry with my existence, so I'm nourished by their hatred. And because I feel like if you are you, you are only going to be universally liked if you're the most milquetoast person alive. Who stands for nothing? And then and I don't want to be that and then b, the people that take the time out of their day, because I won't even leave a Yelp review. I won't do that. Who has the time, I'm exhausted 90% of the time. All right, the people who seek you out to tell you how much they dislike you are really sad people and I feel sorry for them.
Matt:Yeah, they really are. And that's why I wouldn't be able to do a podcast reads mean tweets, because I would just get downright cruel and call them out by name and maybe even tag them and
James:That's why you wouldn't read any of them. I would mail you a muzzle.
Ali:My style of dealing with that would be far too petty.
Camille:It was really funny because the four of us have access to the Queers of Time account, and we had four very different reactions to that, like Kat was like let's just block and move on. I was a bit like that too. But like, in a sense that, no, that guy is even too stupid to talk about- to talk to. Matt went on, both Matt and James went on very mean quote tweets. James was a bit more 'Hey I've been in that community for like, 20 years. I have the experience, shut the fuck up, I know what I'm talking about'.
Kat:Listen up bitch. Yeah, exactly.
Camille:And it was awesome.
Matt:I just ad hominem I didn't bother. Yeah, I didn't bother with 'When they go low, we go high'. I went lower. Low Down dirty behavior. I'm tired.
Ali:Yeah, I just think they're just I- now it's become so funny. Like when they get that now it's funny. Because at first, yeah Gus had a really hard time with i at first because they came for me, which I knew was going to happen. I was like, who's going to cover you? Like, when I'm right there.
James:Who's gonna come for you, the straight white man?
Ali:It's obviously gonna be me, but he had a really hard time with it and I yeah, now it's just funny. Oh, we've kind of worked through it. And it's just funny. But yeah, I think, I think yeah, we wouldn't have a podcast worth doing if we didn't attract haters. And that's what I had to learn on the podcast. So I think, really, it's just a sign that you're doing something right. If you're getting people this riled up about it.
Kat:Their anger sustains me.
Ali:I'm nourished by your anger.
James:The last harmful we have this in our doc for this episode as harmful tropes that the show is already flirting with and I jokingly wrote love triangle, because I, it is not harmful. It was painful. But it wasn't harmful. But it was a very well known trope that is- it did feel a little unnecessary. But
Kat:Was it even a triangle though? This is barely a triangle.
James:It was a line with it was like a curved line, but only curved a little bit.
Kat:At best. At best it was a curved line.
Matt:I don't know about not calling it harmful. I felt like I deserved financial compensation after watching that.
James:Well good thing season two's budget is a lot higher.
Kat:There you go, they have the money. They have the coin.
Ali:Yeah. I will say it was there from the pilot like there are there were
James:Yeah.
Ali:So I will say it was there from the pilot. I think- I think what they were trying to do was kind of play with this idea of like Perrin- the wind of intrusive thought, which I loved. I love that they did. And then I loved it. But like how it kind of affected them after the fact. I'm not sure if that was the intended argument, or if COVID and Barney Harris's departure created some issues there. But I will say I think there are hinted it that maybe they were going to explore. It wasn't my favorite. But I think I think what I appreciated about it is that we had a male and female friendship that dealt with potential feelings, and that it didn't either result in them getting together or destroying the friendship like we could have, we could live in this thing where like, no one made a joke about the friendzone. Nobody, like, bemoaned how the guy was so unfortunate. And I do think it was more Perrin's overthinking of the situation. That simply because how many of us have like created a problem out of not a problem?
Camille:Yeah. All the time.
Kat:Every day, all day, every day.
Ali:Yeah. I think to me, that's how I interpreted it was he was listening to- the intrusive thoughts won in that argument. And that, you know, I don't think it was necessarily like, let's create a, like long term sustainable conflict here. But more just kind of like, well, this, if you are a guy whose wife died and you're responsible, and you kind of maybe have feelings for this other person, that may that may need to come up. But I yeah, I don't know. I- it wasn't my favorite, but I think I understand what they were going for.
Kat:Yeah,
James:Yeah. Also, I can't have my Machin Shin brought up without, I like the wind of intrusive thoughts. But I also like mean, girl nanobots. So always want to give credit to mean girl nanobots, which was from Sara, on Twitter, Maidens of the Spear.
Ali:Mean girl nanobots.
Kat:That's amazing.
James:So let's go to what tropes, they're kind of handling well, because there are a lot of things. So one thing I kind of want to talk about is subverting tropes, which is basically taking a well known trope, and then kind of like turning it on its head in a way that people aren't expecting, in a way that makes it feel fresh.
Ali:Very genre post-modern era of them.
Kat:Exactly.
James:And I don't know that necessarily any of these that we're going to mention are subverting a trope, but well, kind of, I kind of wanted to start with the Chosen One trope, which I think is done really, really, really well in the books too. But in the show, but you always know who the chosen one is. You always know it's it's Rand,
Ali:It's the narrator.
James:But in the show, yeah, it's the it's the main character, the narrator.
Ali:That was without a doubt from the beat from page one.
Kat:Oh for sure,
Ali:I was like, oh, I wonder who it is. Maybe the narrator?
Camille:It'd be fun to to read a book where is the actual narrator is not the main, the chosen one. That would be
Kat:That would be great.
Ali:I read a pilot kind of like that recently, anyway. I'll tell you about it later.
Camille:I'm all ears.
James:But I like how they did it because it was it was yeah, he's the chosen one but no one knows it. And also, no one wants to be the chosen one in this world, because they're an antihero, like they're gonna end the world. So
Ali:Yeah, we love a good anti hero.
Kat:Yeah. Oh, so good. I agree.
Ali:Yeah, I think I think I really love that they leaned even harder into the mystery of the Dragon Reborn for a couple reasons. I think initially, the show requires so much exposition, they needed something that was going to get the audience past that initial hurdle of what the heck is going on. And I think that who is the Chosen One is a great one to go with. I love that they expanded it out to include women. Because I think it gives Egwene and Nynaeve in those early episodes a lot more dimension. I think it gives all of the characters by necessity a lot more dimension, which Robert Jordan said he would have done differently if he had rewritten Eye of the World. Expedite the plotlines, the character development of everyone but Rand. Especially Perrin and Mat and so I think it did that very effectively. And I think they've done a nice job of kind of showcasing that this is not- being the chosen one is not fun, it's not a victory being the chosen one it's awful.
Kat:It's terrible, it's terrifying.
James:And something that I kind of wrote on here the Ta'veren, because I- they're like diet chosen ones, they're chosen ones light. And I liked that they expanded on them a little bit to include Egwene and Nynaeve and, they haven't explored what it means too much to be Ta'veren yet in the show.
Ali:That'll be Loial's job.
James:It'll be, in future seasons it'll be really really interesting.
Kat:Loial will info drop.
Ali:Oh yeah, Loial will info dump that so hard.
James:I will listen to like a five minute exposition just from Loial in the library talking to someone.
Matt:Oh same.
James:Make it an entire like episode, I'll be fine.
Kat:I was just gonna say I would watch an entire episode of Loial just explaining things about the world
Ali:Yeah, I just I would love it to be- this is this more of a comedy thing, but I want it to be the tag of every episode is just Loial sitting- it'd be like Troy and Abed in the morning from Community
James:[singing and Kat joins in]Troy and Abed in the morning!
Ali:Exactly but it's just Loial sitting there talking about a new topic. I would love that.
James:And I want it to be like super random stuff, too that's not at all related to what's happening on the episode.
Ali:Which is the best mushroom to pick or something like that, some kind of tangent.
James:One time, he sang to an oak tree and it was really mean to him.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:I love that.
Kat:Rafe, are you listening? Make this happen.
Ali:Write this down.
James:Yeah I was gonna say, like Rafe also, Hammed if you're listening, can you please narrate some of the audiobooks? I know Rosamund is probably going to do a few more, but if you would do a couple I'd be real happy.
Kat:Yeah. And he has, Hammed has such a good speaking voice too
Matt:Very soothing
Ali:So lovely. And Rosamund.
Kat:So soothing, pleasant to listen to. Oh, I love it.
James:Makes my pussy wet.
Matt:James I knew you're gonna go there. Jesus Christ
Kat:Oh my god.
Ali:Boo James. Okay. But I will say also as a writer how annoyed I am that Robert Jordan just came up with a reason for plot armor.
James:I love that he just said yes, they have plot armor. It is built into the world
Kat:He leaned into it.
Ali:I know, I'm just I'm furious. Because it's so brilliant that he just went you know what, you're right. Arrows are gonna miss them. And?
Kat:And what about?
Ali:What about it? You're just mad you didn't come up with this first.
James:The world is literally looking out for them.
Ali:And he's right, I am mad. I am mad I didn't come up with it first. It's so great.
Kat:Yeah.
James:Kat, do you want to talk about the next one as our resident Nynaeve fan?
Kat:As the again? Token.
James:As the token Canadian.
Kat:Token Canadian, to clarify the token Canadian.
Camille:Token Nynaeve fan.
Kat:Yes token Nynaeve fan.
James:Yeah, there's only one of us in here.
Ali:Whaat? Oh, no. You're being facetious. Okay, I was-
Kat:James is being.. yes.
James:James, facetious?
Ali:That was going to be- that was gonna be a moment. Okay. got it.
Kat:Angry black woman. It's, I mean, we've seen it's the the trope is very self explanatory. We've seen it many a time. It's frustrating every single time I see it. And my first reaction to seeing Zoe Robins cast as Nynaeve was joy and happiness and just all of the good things. And then my second thought was like, oh no she's gonna be the angry black woman, you know
James:She's literally the angriest character in the entire series.
Kat:She is just filled with rage in the series. And so I was like, oh, no, oh god, this is going to be a whole thing. But I have been pleasantly surprised because I think the show- the show has done a really good job at establishing where her frustration is coming from. So that it's not just her being angry out of the blue and seemingly for no reason. It is it's founded in something and so her frustration and anger at Moiraine, it's not just because it's not- and it's not specifically tied to Lan. It's because she just doesn't trust Aes Sedai as a whole. And it's because of what her previous you know, like her mentor. It's, I just think they've done a really good job at setting that up. And so, because we haven't even seen Nynaeve at her angriest, we haven't seen her final form yet. She has so much anger to get into.
Matt:She has not Digivolved.
Kat:Exactly. And so I just think they've really good done a good job at establishing what it is that makes Nynaeve tick. And fundamentally, it's that she has this fierce desire to protect her loved ones. And that is where that is what motivates her. That's what pushes her. That's why she gets so angry. And so like, I mean, one of my favorite moments in like the last half of the of the season is when she just like basically tells Machin Shin to like no, actually fuck you. You will not fuck with my friends, you will not do this to us. We are getting out of here you will not get like you don't get to win. And I just think it's really beautiful. They've taken her anger that I think was kind of one dimensional in the series almost.
James:It was.
Kat:And they've turned it into- it was yes. I know, I was being generous.
James:It was it was she's angry because she's angry.
Kat:Yes, exactly.
James:That's who she be.
Kat:That's her thing. Yeah. But they've taken that and they've turned it into something really beautiful. Because I think there is beauty in people who are just fiercely and ferociously and righteously angry at seeing their loved ones and their friends like harm come to them. And you know, that really does drive them and it's I'm impressed. I'm happy with it.
Ali:Yeah me too, me too. I definitely had a small muscle clench about Nynaeve and how they were going to handle her. And I think they gave her so much depth and really fleshed out her character in a way that I really enjoyed. And I think what was also a benefit of deepening that character and exploring more of who she is and where she comes from, and what her wounds are, that motivate her anger is that it also made Lan and Nynaeve makes sense. Because the two of them share, they share a wound they- and he is able in this one moment that I think is so amazing to give her a piece of her life back, right. This mystery that she has experienced her entire life, that he is not only able to recognize and meet her where she is in terms of what they've gone through. But he's also able to give her a piece of her history back. And I think that's really powerful stuff. So I think yeah, just their relationship and how quickly they are drawn to each other, makes a lot more sense to me in this iteration of The Wheel of Time.
Kat:I agree.
Ali:So keep it up.
Kat:Keep it up writers.
James:Don't fuck it up.
Ali:Don't fuck it up.
Kat:Don't fuck it up.
Ali:Yeah. We'll be watching.
James:Let's talk about some future things in the show. So future plot points in the Wheel of Time that are going to be a little bit complicated, and they're going to be a little difficult to navigate, like, the show has done pretty well so far with overcoming some of those difficult bits. But how are they going to handle things like, I mean, just to talk about the first one like the Seanchan. Slavery. Damane. How, how-
Camille:Ouch.
James:How?
Kat:I'm so stressed for them, I'm so stressed for them. You don't understand I'm so like-
Ali:This in 2022 would give me ulcers.
Kat:Oh absolutely. It's, I don't because I don't know what I would do. If I were in that position. I genuinely don't know how I would handle it. Because I feel like no matter what you do, it's kind of like a- it's a lot, it's a lot.
Matt:The first thing I would do is to have a lot of damane be very diverse, and trending on lighter skinned,
James:Right.
Matt:I don't know how to go from there. But that's- that is the first thing I would do is to make sure that there's
James:And the next thing would also be to have all the Sul'dam be like
Kat:I was gonna say.
James:Yeah, how about the Sul'dam be darker skinned and diverse?
Kat:Yes.
Ali:Well, yeah, I think. Yeah, I think definitely the damane, I think with the with the Sul'dam, the danger is if you make them just darker skinned people, then it's like we're doing a whoopsie daisy reversal.
Kat:We're doing a flipsie.
James:Oh, look what we did.
Matt:It needs to reflect the damane as well.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:I'm just like, how white can they all be?
James:Right? I'm not saying all dark skinned. I was like leaning darker. But I understand that the navigation with that is difficult.
Ali:I think
Camille:Just make both groups diverse.
Ali:Yeah, I think that I think that the thing for me is being very again, we're talking about intention. But they were very intentional with what they did with Nynaeve, I think and definitely had to be willing to have some hard conversations about that character and what they were doing with Zoe, and making sure that that they are honoring that character. And Zoe, in that in the way that they depict that character. I think similarly, they're going to need to have some really in depth and hard conversations about how they depict this culture, especially in relation to you know, Madeleine Madden being a woman of color. I think part of that is also being very intentional with the iconography they're using for these people. I think we already kind of seeing that a little bit.
James:Because they aren't wearing collars,
Kat:Best decision, oh, my god best decision they could have made.
James:I mean, I don't think that the pacifiers are the best, but they're better than collars.
Kat:Significantly.
Ali:I think the tricky line to draw is depicting slavery in a way that's not sanitizing slavery, but in a way that's also not drawing upon existing history. And that's really going to be a fine line to draw because we're not wanting it to be 'Oh, and, and they're, they're happy this way'. Or like, oh, it's sad. But we're going to be very vague in general about how sad it is. Right? We have to lean into the realities.
Kat:We gotta do it. If you're going to do it, you got to do it.
Ali:Yeah. And the trauma of that I think it's very dismissed in the books.
Camille:Yes.
James:Yes. That's what I was gonna say and like, I think it's super fucking important that everybody is abhorred by the Seanchan when they like land, like, because everyone's like, oh, there's some weird people over there. Look at this, those weird people. And no one mentioned slaves until there's the damane and the Aes Sedai. And I'm like, y'all should have seen people on collars like long ago and said something about that.
Matt:Yeah.
Camille:And also like, Egwene's trauma from being a damane is very quickly dismissed in like, book three, and then it's almost never mentioned.
James:She got over it.
Kat:It's fine. Just a little light slavery, you know?
James:Jesus Christ. That's not the title of the episode. That is not the title. I will veto that.
Kat:It's not, it's not.
Matt:So, yeah, I think it's gonna be difficult because it's, it is a book by an American author, and the production is based in the United States. And therefore, this country has a very bad history with slavery. But also, we have to remember that-
Kat:Sorry, just a very bad history, to put it mildly.
James:Just a very bad history,
Matt:The reverse of American exceptionalism, where we say, we're just wonderful. And we are wonderful in the way that nobody else has been wonderful. The reverse of that is, America's terrible and we are terrible in a way that nobody else has ever been terrible. And that is also American exceptionalism. And I think if, if they take that mentality, they run the risk of being very insensitive, in depicting slavery, because it is still a global phenomenon. So they don't just have to contend with the history of American slavery. They have to contend with colonialism, modern day slavery, it's uh- I don't envy them at all.
Kat:No
Ali:I think I, I fall into a similar camp, I think with with depictions of like rape, or the murder of women or things like that, where it does get into this, this, this trauma, and that is shared by a lot of people. And that requires a lot of care when you're handling it, and I go, What are you trying to say with it? How are we exploring the ramifications of this in a way that honors that experience? You know, if we have a woman get get raped and sorry, but you know, as an example, you know, obviously, it's not the same, but there needs to be lasting ramifications for that in my mind to justify it because to say we can't ever depict those traumas is to also invalidate the experience of women right? And to say we can't ever take slavery also invalidates the fact that slavery is very real now. And so it's just about saying, how are we going to depict this in a way that not only honors the characters and the characters experience, but the experiences of the people that might be watching this, who might have gone through this experience, you know, and obviously, they're not a monolith, either. But making sure that we're doing everything in our power to be intentional and honor the experience as best we can. So that's my, that's my take on it is like, be very cautious and thoughtful. But I think yeah, I think trying to avoid maybe specifically calling upon the iconography or exact experience of anything that's happening right now and trying to distance itself, while still being like, let's really dig into the realities of this and not sanitize it in any way and not pretend like, well, because there's so many people that have said to me, the Seanchan really aren't that bad.
Camille:What
James:Who says that?
Ali:Yes, I've had multiple people say they're actually really good rulers, though and administrators, as long as you're not a damane. And... and I have to look at him and go, I don't care if the trains run on time. If you are, if your society is propped up by the oppression of other people, it is not a just or good society. And I don't know how to say that in any clearer way. Like they are enslaving people. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if like, well, everyone else seems kind of happy, though. As long as you're not. No but legitimately that has been said to me. And I'm like-
James:As a warning and if anyone ever says that to me, I will lose my shit.
Kat:It's- oh, do not ever, don't.
Camille:Yeah it happens a few times. But like, even if, even if they were not doing slavery, they're like, coming to another continent, as colonizers expecting everyone to follow their rules, like what the fuck?
Ali:Or they'll set them on fire.
Kat:Yeah, it's literally colonialism.
Ali:So do in no uncertain terms can the Seanchan be in any way interpreted as positive? None.
Matt:And I'll say In addition, if anybody's listening from the show is just desexualize damane as much as possible.
Ali:Oh.
Camille:Oh yeah, yeah.
Kat:Oh, oh,
Ali:Yeah.
Kat:That just give you a whole new thing to worry about.
James:Yeah, I didn't think about how they break them in in the show or in the books.
Ali:You've seen the preview, right? I think that that scary looking lady with a mask. I think that's Suroth. I think that's why they're doing that. It's like the reverse. Like, they cover their mouth. They have something
Kat:And then they have the-
Ali:They have that thing. I think it's like a puzzle.
Kat:That makes sense.
Ali:But so I think they're trying to lay in their spook factor.
Kat:Yeah.
James:Okay, the next thing that we have to worry about is, and I'm, again, gonna remind everybody about spoilers past, a Crown of Swords, is the "Bury Your Gays" trope, which
Camille:I can introduce that if you want.
James:Yeah, you introduce this one. Because this is you. This is what caused you trauma.
Camille:Yeah. So that's something that I wanted to mention, because I know you've reached that point in the books in the sense that in season one, Moiraine and Siuan were the main queer couple in that season, and I know that I have a lot of queer friends who started watching the show because they saw it because they saw like gifs of them and wanted to find out that show. And we know what happened in book five, which is that Moraine, who is actually the leader of season one, in book five she's sacrificed herself for Rand.
Ali:Could be a fridging technically.
Camille:It's a bury your gay.
Ali:Yeah.
James:Yeah.
Kat:It's- it could be a double.
Camille:It's a double. And I don't know what the show will do with that. But I am stressed out about that.
Ali:Well, I don't think Moiraine is dead dead. That's that'll be my first- I don't I just I don't buy it. I- there's no body. And that's my feeling. There's no body. So it seems very convenient that she just went into the realm of the Finn. And I believe that Mat and Thom and maybe a third person go in there and grab her. I think it's what's his name? Like? He's an old guy. And they talk about him- Jain Farstrider! I think the three of them- I don't know why I've decided he's the third one that goes in there. But I think the three of them go in there and save her. And maybe Lanfear too, because she's not dead either. I don't buy it. Just like Robert. Robert, please. So there's that. You know, but up until then. Yes. 100% I think I think it's an interesting thing, because we're not saying- it's the apocalypse right? People have to be able to die. Women can die for men sometimes. Right? Because it's the apocalypse, and we're not just gonna be like only straight white men can die in this right? But it's it's one of those things where you go okay, but if they're the only queer couple in this entire show and Moiraine dies, that is a bury your gay, and we don't have any balance in this at all.
Matt:Okay, Ali, I have a question for you then.
Kat:Uh oh.
Matt:So we're gonna make two assumptions. This is this is a way to get Ali to answer a question without actually spoiling it. So we assume a, that Moiraine is dead in the books and not coming back. Or we assume that Moiraine is not dead in the books and does come back and that the show is going to follow that. So we have those two scenarios.
Ali:Yeah.
Matt:How would you as a writer, or someone in the writing room, avoid the bury your gays trope if she's dead, and if she comes back how would you because you know, if she's dead, she's dead. If she's going to come back, she's gone. At least for what two books now? Which is about a season how would you bypass the bury your gays trope if she's alive? How would you minimize it if she's dead? I'm interested in your thoughts.
Ali:Yeah, have more queer characters who aren't just them. Who don't die. That's one of them. I mean, obviously, the answer is pretty nuanced. But I think also being very deliberate about Moiraine's sacrifice and why she does it. And being very deliberate about- yeah, I mean, honestly, a big portion of it is are they going to be your only queer characters? How it is that death depicted? Do we honor the relationship the way that it needs to be honored in that moment? What are the circumstances that we're going to go with? I think that what they're setting up is that the whole docks thing happens in part because Moiraine is actually trying to get to Siuan. With like them saying that the Amyrlin Seat is going to be your downfall. I think it might be that she hears that Siuan has been deposed. And in that moment, maybe goes to the docks as like a like maybe I need to get to her kind of experience, is my thought.
Matt:So that was Scenario A if Scenario B is the case, and Moiraine is not dead, but and we do know that she is off book screen for at least two books. How would you handle that to avoid the bury your gays trope in a way where the audience's thinks she's dead and it might harm queer audiences? How would you handle that fake death?
Ali:The fake death? Well, I feel like her being concretely dead is would be a harder thing to handle. Personally. I think that concrete death would be period bury your gays. Yeah, then please, for the love of God have more gay people who don't get buried. And really, really give that death a lot of weight and impact in terms of of the more light lighter side? I mean, I think you can plant clues that she's potentially not dead. I think you can plant those clues if you're looking for them. Robert Jordan does that all the time, right?
Matt:Yeah, that's true.
Kat:Yeah.
Ali:But she's not dead. I think you can have her be a presence. I mean, we have Tel'aran'rhiod for a reason, right? And she doesn't necessarily need to be alive or dead. I mean, they're not going to just have- if she comes back, they're not just going to have Rosamund Pike just chill on ice for a season.
James:And like she has to show up in either flashbacks or I mean, flashbacks are too often used. So Tel'aran'rhiod is a great subversion of that.
Kat:For sure.
Ali:I mean, dreams in general are a great diversion for that. So I think there's ways to make her a presence, even if she's gone. So that it's not just like alright so she's dead. And now all the queers can be sad.
James:I mean, you have to understand like, she's basically Gandalf. She's Gandalf, but better.
Kat:She is.
James:And Gandalf comes back. So I, I mean, I just I don't know.
Ali:Well I think they can also emphasize the reincarnation aspect of everything right, death is not final in this series. Right? Death is not final just because we've buried this gay does not mean it is a final, you know, we will never
James:She might come back as a sexy zombie.
Ali:We just don't know. We just don't know. And, I mean, I think that they could also introduce the fact that the Forsaken can be resurrected earlier.
James:I hope they avoid that personally, but
Ali:Yeah, I mean.
James:I like it, but I think it's too complicated to show and if they do it, I'm sure they'll do it really well. I just don't have the imagination to know how it can be done super well.
Ali:But those would be my brief thoughts. I mean, what what do you all think?
Matt:Well, I think that Ali has answered the question to my satisfaction. And I don't think that any of us can really talk about it without risking a spoiler.
Camille:Such a mean guy.
Matt:I mean, I have- I have exact thoughts about what the show should do. But that would involve a lot of spoilers and we must hashtag protect Ali.
James:Yeah, that is a future episode on where we just talk about Siuaraine, and their love.
Ali:Hashtag project Ali.
Kat:We need to throw like a big party, once Ali- once you're done Ali, once you're done the series we need to throw like a big livestream. And just like, you know, it's a party. I think that's what needs needs to happen.
Camille:Can we bet that which seasons the TV show will be when they'll be done because-
Ali:Probably be like, 40? Or, you know, we're actually we're thinking about doing a little bit of an expedited schedule for the next couple books, just because, they're a little slower. And we really want to make sure that we that the show never catches up to us. And also because I- I wanna know what happens, I wanna know happens like, you know. I don't want to be 40 and still, and still not know whether or not you know, Rand survives the Last Battle or whatever it is.
Camille:Having to slow down for the podcast is, must be tough.
Ali:We're about to hit our 3 year anniversary of the podcast.
James:And y'all are only on book seven.
Ali:Yes.
James:Okay. I don't listen to your podcast. I don't listen to anybody's podcasts. Oh, sorry. I love you all. I support, y'all Pah-treon. Pay-treon. I'm sorry, Val, and Matt. All right. So game time, because it is getting a little late in the recording day, especially now that Camille has moved to the UK. So there is a website I briefed it was briefly in the planning doc for this episode. But there is a website that talks about TV Tropes, it's called TV tropes.org. And I am not taking this seriously, in any way shape, or form. Because if you look at the Wheel of Time page for it, which do not because that would be cheating. It is very, there were some book cloaks that wrote some things in here. Not all of it. There's some really good stuff in there. But I think this is also just a lot of bitter people on this website. So take it with a grain of salt. But there are I actually should have counted how many there are, but there's at least like 150 tropes listed for the Wheel of Time show. No, probably closer to like 200. Maybe 250. It's a lot. So according- I made this game secret, you guys don't know anything about it. According to tvtropes.org, which of these is not a trope in the Wheel of Time series, and I'm not going to give you the definition of any of the tropes. So you guys can have fun with that. And we're going to do it in either two or three rounds depending on how much time we have. So the first round, which of these four is not a trope in the Wheel of Time TV series: Disney death, Amazon brigade, ass kicking pose, or dance battler. Disney death, Amazon brigade, ass kicking pose, dance battler, battler
Matt:Dance battler.
Kat:I'm going with Disney death
Camille:Ass kicking pose? I still I'm still not able to understand what those word means ass kicking pose?
Ali:Ass kicking pose, so you know like that which I think Nynaeve did with the with the hair. Nynaeve totally did that with the hair.
Camille:Disney death, I'm sure it is.
Ali:Disney death I feel like is Laila maybe? Or like a parent that- oh no parent that dies, a parent dies like your especially your mom. I feel like that's Disney death right? Wouldn' that be?
Kat:Yeah that makes sense.
Camille:The Amazon brigade is definitely like the Green Ajah scene.
Kat:Yeah like that whole that whole sequence with them fighting in the woods. Yeah, I think that's Amazon brigade.
Ali:Badass warrior women.
Kat:And then the pose we know and then-
Camille:I think it's the last one.
Ali:Yeah dance battling.
James:Okay so you guys are mostly deciding on dance battler, okay.
Matt:Yes, dance battler.
Kat:I'm still saying Disney.
James:Okay so it is neither of those, it is actually ass kicking pose. Ass kicking pose is defined as like the Charlie's Angels type of thing where it's the pose you get in before you fight. According to tvtropes.org that is how it's defined. A Disney death is someone that is seemingly killed, and everyone's sad, but then they're like, oh, no, she's actually alive like Snow White.
Ali:Thom.
James:So that was Nynaeve twice.
Kat:Ohhhhhhhh
Matt:Moiraine.
James:Moiraine.
Kat:That's right.
James:Amazon brigade is pretty clearly and then dance battler, Tigraine.
Matt:Tigraine, oh, Jesus. Yeah.
Kat:Oh yes, okay!
James:And again, I mean, you can make this is just according to tvtropes.org.
Matt:That's okay, it's fun.
James: Okay, so round two:hotter and sexier, persecution flip, clever crows, superpower meltdown.
Ali:I feel like hotter and sexier is like, I'm back but I'm hotter and sexier than I was before. I feel like that's the that's the trope, right? It's me, but I'm hotter and sexier.
Matt:I'm gonna say persecution flip. Final answer.
Ali:Wait wait wait wait wait
Matt:Oh, that's just mine.
James:For Matt, that's the final answer.
Matt:For me it's the final answer not for y'all, y'all can do it.
Ali:Oh okay. Persecution flip I feel like is, is like, let's take existing persecutions and flip them on their head. Like someone in the world could be like, it's men and women persecution, right? So I feel like that's one. What are the other two?
James:Hotter and sexier, persecution flip, clever crows and superpower meltdown.
Ali:So is this for the show specifically? Or is this for the book? Do we have any crows in the show right now?
Matt:I'm pretty sure that we're crows. Maybe? Or maybe I'm thinking Lord of the Rings.
Ali:The crows got replaced by wolves I feel like in terms of them running away from the crows?
Camille:Does it- wait but like crows maybe just do we have clever animals? And in that case we have the wolves.
Matt:But that's not clever crows.
Camille:But the name of the trope may mean something else.
Ali:What was last one?
James:Superpower meltdown.
Ali:Oh well, we definitely have that. So-
Kat:Yeah, for sure.
Ali:Yeah.
James:Okay so Matt is going with persecution flip.
Ali:I'm going with the crows.
Kat:I'm going with the crows.
Camille:I'll go with the crows too.
James:Okay. Matt is wrong, it is clever crows. Clever crows is talking about how ravens are also are seen as like messengers of evil and stuff and they communicate and stuff and they're smarter than everything.
Ali:Yeah that's why I was like, is it the show or the books?
James:Yeah, I feel that I'm trying to be clever, but it didn't really work. So ha ha clever crows.
Ali:You're trying to be clever crow?
James:I am trying to be a clever crow. Hotter and sexier is, according to TV Tropes, compared to the book material, the show is much hotter and much sexier.
Matt:Oh, that's true.
James:Which is not wrong.
Kat:Well, that's true.
James:I don't like the verbiage that they used, which was the first book was sex free, whereas in the show, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, and then it's like, six instances of people having sex and I'm like, yeah, so? Persecution flip is basically what Ali said, where instead of men being or women being persecuted in this world, it's men. According to TV Tropes, like a biggest example of this is like Planet of the Apes. So. And then superpower meltdown, that one's pretty obvious. I think we have time for one more. The last one I
have is, four that I have are:through the eyes of madness, human ladder, adaptation jerk ass, I have many names.
Ali:Okay, okay, here's my- here's my thought process I feel like human ladder is when you like use someone else to like climb up something, and I feel like that happened in Shadar Logoth. Okay-
Kat:That's right. Okay.
Ali:What was the adaptation one? Adaptation jerk ass?
James:Adaptation jerk ass.
Camille:That definitely happened. It's basically when you have characters that were nice in the books, that are not nice in the adaptation and that's gonna be Cauthon family.
Ali:Yes, I was gonna say the same thing. I think that's what that is. What are the other two?
James:And then there are human ladder, adaptations jerk ass, through the eyes of madness, and I have many names.
Camille:I have many names is happening, like forsaken.
Kat:Yeah. Okay, I have many names.
Ali:I feel like though that's the moment where you're like they call me lots of things, I could be this, I could be that. Which Ishamael does in the books, but I don't think
Kat:Yes.
Ali:No, ohhh but does he do it at the end of the-
Matt:I don't think so.
Ali:I don't think he has his like "I'm called Father of lies. Betrayer of Hope".
Kat:I don't think he said- he hasn't said that in the show yet.
Matt:And I'm pretty sure through the eyes of madness. I mean, that could be several parts of the show.
Kat:It could be several I was gonna say yeah, it could be several
Ali:Yeah.
Kat:I think it's the last one it's the I have many names that's not-
Matt:I think that's it too.
Ali:I feel like he's trying to trick us.
James:Okay, you guys are correct.
Ali:Yes!
Matt:Yay!
James:That one has not been in the show yet. However, and you got the through the eyes of madness that's Logain, Mat and then adaptation jerk ass that was specifically about Abel Cauthon. Human ladder is not someone climbing on top of someone else to reach something. That is when monsters use like piles of human bodies to climb up something which happened in the Trolloc battle.
Ali:Ohhhhh
Matt:We were still right.
Ali:Either way.
James:You were still right. I just thought it was funny when you guys went with like the super like, Oh, it's just when someone claims on someone else's shoulders.
Ali:It is cute.
Camille:Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Queers of Time Podcast. If you liked our show, please give us a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Tiktok at Queers of Time and on our Discord server. And by the way, we forgot to say, Ali where can people find you?
Ali:Oh good question. They can find Wheel Takes Podcast on Twitter at Wheel Takes Pod, they can find me on Tik Tok. I think it's our usernames, like Wheel Takes podcast. You can find us also on Instagram at Wheel Takes podcast and I think that's it. I think we just have those three. And we have a discord too. But yeah, but anyway,
James:And you have a Patreon!
Ali:And we have a Patreon as well! Yeah if you want to support us, that would be really, really cool of you.
James:Yeah, for people that don't know podcasting is expensive.
Ali:Yeah.
James:It ain't cheap.
Camille:We're gonna have to increase our Riverside subscription, but that's another issue. If you're able, we'd love to have your support through Patreon. We've got a lot of nice things there, and this helps us cover the cost of producing the podcast because yes, it's expensive. Thank you, have a good one.
James:Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Ali.
Kat:Thank you, Ali.
Ali:Thank you so much for having me, this was so fun.
Camille:Thank you all for listening. So this was Queers of Time, A Wheel of Time podcast. The music is "Dance of the Witches" by Julius H.
Matt:It's not like I talked about Spider-Man appearing in the last book. Okay? I didn't spoil that.
James:Yeah I mean, when Spider Man shows up and like starts wielding Mjolnir in the Last Battle. It does get a little weird.
Matt:I didn't spoil that at least.
Kat:Yeah, he's and you know, what's, what's crazy is that he's wearing the Black Panther suit, too it's-
Ali:Ohhhh
James:Yeah, I mean, the fact that Brandon didn't see that coming with the cultural appropriation like he did like Wakanda Forever, but then he did the Triple X symbol from WWF.
Ali:No, no,
James:That was a throwback to 2002.
Matt:So the next trope.
James:Next trope! Camille are you okay? Camille is off screen now.
Matt:That's fine.
Kat:High School me just went on a journey.
James:Oh Camille is dying.
Kat:Are you okay Camille?
Matt:They'll live.
Ali:They are quitting.
Camille:I'm fine.
Kat:Oh my god, that was very good James.
Camille:I was like I was trying to find what could I say that would be funny. I'm like, I'm just gonna shut up.
James:Wakanda Forever, Triple H.
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