Interview With Rafe Judkins

This episode contains some light spoilers up to The Fires of Heaven.

The Queers of Time got the amazing opportunity to interview Rafe Judkins, the showrunner of the Wheel of Time TV show on Prime Video. Tune in on March 13th for the third season of the Wheel of Time.

Transcript

Kat: 0:06

Hello everyone.

James: 0:07

Welcome to the Queers of Time Podcast.

Matt: 0:10

I'm Mat.

James: 0:11

I'm James.

Camille: 0:12

I'm Camille,

Kat: 0:13

and I'm Kat

Matt: 0:14

and this is a podcast to talk about all the gay stuff in the Wheel of Time,

Camille: 0:18

because we're gay and we like the Wheel of Time. And as always, thank you to all Feral Venerators of Siuraine: Charlie, John, and Lurkz. And also to our lovely patrons and everyone who sent us nice messages over those years. We love making this podcast, but you're one of the reasons why we are continuing this adventure. So thank you very much. On another note, something pretty incredible happened to us last week. I still can't really believe it. As the Queers of Time, we had the opportunity to interview Rafe Judkins, the showrunner of the Wheel of Time TV show on Amazon Prime video. It was really awesome. We were super excited. Coming up with questions was kind of a process and a lot of fun. We were a bit nervous. Rafe was very sweet, and is an amazing person. We had lovely time chatting with him. Anyway. Without further ado, here's our Queers of Time interview with Rafe Judkins.

Rafe Judkins: 1:41

I'm so excited to get to talk to you guys.

Matt: 1:43

Well, we are so excited to talk to you. It's, we're just a little gay, and we always, always love talking to you know, queer Wheel of Time related issues and fun facts and stuff.

Rafe Judkins: 1:57

Me too. I am also a Queer of Time.

James: 2:03

Yeah, I mean, just to get things started, the Wheel of Time resonates with a lot of queer readers for a lot of different reasons. As a gay man, kind of what resonates with you when you read the Wheel of Time? I

Rafe Judkins: 2:13

I mean, you know, I think I've been talking about this a lot today, is that for me, I love fantasy books, I read all of them. I read Lord of the Rings with my dad. He would like page through it to my brother and I when we were kids. But there was something about the Wheel of Time when I read it where I felt like I could see myself in the pages for the first time in a different way than I ever could before. And you know, even though some of the queer relationships in the books are more, you know, subdued or wink-wink-nod-nod, they're like, they're there, you know, those relationships are there. And to me, they read like big billboards, like, oh my god, Moiraine is a lesbian, and she loves the Amyrlin Seat, you know, like, that's. It reads like a billboard to you when you're a queer kid growing up. And so for me, it's always been really important to try to find a way to bring those stories to life in the show as well, and to bring a multiplicity of them to life in the show. Because I think that's one of, one of the things that, honestly, the books did extraordinarily well for the time that they came out. And, you know, I think we should be trying to do extraordinarily well for the time that we come out, too. And so, you know, that's always been something that I and the other writers have have viewed as a really important aspect of our job.

James: 3:37

Great, thank you.

Camille: 3:39

Yeah, and in a similar way regarding the books. So we are talking about queer relationships here, but our understanding of gender has also evolved a lot since the books were written. And how do you balance what we know about gender now with the binary nature of gender in the books, and do non binary people actually have a place in in your Wheel of Time, at least?

Rafe Judkins: 4:05

Yeah, I think that they do. Because I feel like that there is a, you know, one thing that's really interesting about the Wheel of Time books is that they do explore so many different kinds of cultures around the world and different approaches to women and men and gender that you you aren't used to seeing, and that are different and surprising. And so I do think one thing we've kind of consciously tried to do on the show that is different from the books, is, is break down the gender binary that exists in such a hard way in the books, and sort of find a way to use everything that's in the books, but talk about it in a way too that feels more authentic to like our experience of the world today. I think there's an interesting scene in season three where Moiraine and Rand talk about the One Power and in the books, you know. There's Saidin and Saidar, which exist in the show as well. And they talk about, she asks, how you can hold so much of it like if you submit yourself to it, won't it just wash you away. And he says, don't submit to it. I don't know if the White Tower knows everything about Saidin and Saidar. I don't know if they know everything about this thing called the One Power. And so that's something that you'll see us kind of like repeatedly doing through this season. There's a trans actor who plays an Aes Sedai in the White Tower. There's just a number of things we're sort of doing throughout the season, not not trying to make like build big billboards or sign posts around it, but to try to, like, show very consciously that our approach to gender in this world is slightly different than it was in the books. But still, you know, really trying to bring to life, like the heart of what I think you know, was being attempted in the books, which was to do a complicated and nuanced take on, on, on gender in the world.

Camille: 6:04

Yeah. Thank you very much for, for that. It's really nice to to hear that there's a conscious effort, yeah, on that side.

Rafe Judkins: 6:12

For sure, we talk about it a lot of the writers room, and we have, you know, all kinds of different people, both binary and non in the writers room. So, you know, it's something we talk about a lot.

Kat: 6:22

Yeah, that's really cool to hear, you know, especially because it's cool to see ourselves represented, especially in fantasy on screen. Because you, since we're talking about Moiraine, you know, we have to talk about, ask about Moiraine and Siuan, one of the favorite relationships on the show, just, I guess, kind of going back, how did you make the decision to bring their sort of relationship to the forefront in the show, and what can we expect to see from them in season three? Because they left Season Two in kind of a precarious situation, let's say.

Rafe Judkins: 6:59

Yes, you know, I think Moiraine and Siuan from the beginning of the show that was that was like, something that was very important to me to do is bring that relationship to life. Because when I was a kid and read it, I was like, Oh my God, these lesbians, and they're, like, central to the entire plot of the thing, and like, they're everything, and she's the Amyrlin Seat and like and they love each other. This is crazy that this exists. I guess some people read the books and didn't think they were lesbians, but it's pretty clear that they are. And so I felt like, you know, that was important to me in bringing it to the show, and also like that relationship is very important to both of those characters in the books, and so I think seeing them actually in love with each other on screen only deepens that, and like lets you feel the pain of what they're up against too, which is that they, you know, they're two women who love each other, but they've been called to a very high duty for the world, and them struggling between their duty to the world and everyone who lives in it, versus their love for each other is, is something that like really grabs at your heart, I think, and I think that they're, they're two women who are, you know, extremely powerful characters who are very committed to their duties, and so it's a big and natural struggle for them to have with their relationship. And it was one thing we wanted to see brought to life a little bit more in season two, and something that Rosamund and Sophie had asked for as well, was just trying to see where they conflict with each other, where, you know, these these women are on very different paths in some way, even though they're supposed to be united in their path. And so how, how might they come up against each other in conflict? And I think season three, sort of, it continues to play along those themes of what have happened to them in the past, and like, can, can their love survive their duty? And, you know, that's a question that you still see asked in season three.

Matt: 9:07

Yeah, I love Siuan and Moiraine or Siuaraine, and I can, I can tell that there's so much love and care that goes into portraying the relationship. It feels like a fan of the show is in charge, and you are a fan. And I think it's, it's awesome that you get to have that position, but I'm wondering how different is Rafe the fan versus Rafe the showrunner, and how do you balance those roles and their differences when you're deciding what book material to cut or alter? And I'm thinking specifically of The Shadow Rising. It's a massive book, and it's, it's, how's that going to shape out?

Rafe Judkins: 9:45

It's huge, because there's things, you know, like, I'm a fan of the books. I love them. Everyone who's a fan of the books. I think these books are very unique, and that the fandom understands that this piece of them is unique, and that, like, people have very different favorite pieces of them. There are people who like flipped over every Egwene chapter to get to Perrin chapters, and then people who flipped over every Perrin chapter to get to Egwene chapters, or at least flipped forward to see how much, how much farther they had to go. And so I think, you know, that's an inherent piece of what we're doing, is trying to balance that. And I can't just do my favorite things from the book, I have to do, you know, like do the books themselves and the series themselves justice. So there are moments that like weren't very iconic to me, like Mat fighting Galad and Gawin was not an iconic moment in the books to me, but it is an iconic moment in the books. And so I talk to a lot of people about why it's iconic to them, what matters to them in it, like, what why it means something to them emotionally. And then we, you know, and it's about this kid from the Two Rivers, sort of like giving the middle finger to the upper class, in a way. And so we really tried to achieve that when we brought the scene to life and, like, set it in our show, with our characters and how they're doing it, but, but try to give it the same emotional takeaway that made people love it in the book. So, you know, so I try to do that for the scenes that I I didn't connect to as much, but I know are very important. And likewise, you know, I there's things that I just love in the books that are not in the show, that is those are really hard sometimes to cut, but you you have to do it, and you have to be would only have these eight hours, and I love these characters, and we have to try to find a way to do them justice. And so, you know, you have to make tough decisions sometimes, and we, I'm lucky. I have a lot of other amazing writers around me, like Justine Gilmer is, you know, the voice of Moiraine and Siuan, and put so much of herself into those scenes. And you know, like so much of their relationship comes from her and her beautiful writing. So, you know, a lot of writers on the show, you know, put themselves into these characters in these scenes too.

Kat: 12:02

Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, just thinking about iconic characters and iconic scenes. We got, we're getting Elaida a little bit later than she appears in the books. She is one of my favorite characters in all of her glorious mess. And so can we expect to see that sort of messy antagonist, but thinks she's a hero, but is she? Can we expect to see that translated into the show?

Rafe Judkins: 12:31

Yeah, I mean, we got Shohreh to play her, so you know that we're gonna do messy and fun and big and Elaida is gonna be all the things that people loved about her in the books, and all the things that people hated about her in the books. I mean, Shohreh just has, she just has a field day with this character. I'm so excited for people to see what she does with her. And I think she, you know, one of the things that's always the most interesting to me about Elaida is that she is not a darkfriend. You know, she does some of the most horrible things that any character in our books do, and she does them thinking that she's doing the right thing. And I think that makes her extremely interesting. And so we've put a lot of that into the season two. You, hopefully the audience will be able to take away that this is a woman who believes she's in the right even when she's doing just the craziest shit.

James: 13:26

No, that's awesome. Speaking of some other iconic characters or iconic relationships, I guess. Way back in September 2018 you mentioned that you were more interested in polyamory than polygamy when it comes to Rand's relationships. We've recently gotten a still of Elayne and Aviendha looking at each other, smirking, sharing a drink. I guess my question is like, dare we hope?

Rafe Judkins: 13:49

I would say, hope.

James: 13:51

Okay, awesome. I am happy with that answer.

Rafe Judkins: 13:54

Tune in tomorrow. I think you, you're you will see your hopes realized tomorrow.

Camille: 14:00

Oh, we are definitely turning in tomorrow. On a different topic, the villains, especially the Forsaken in the Wheel of Time, are very campy, both in the books and in the show. Can we expect even more of that campiness in season three?

Rafe Judkins: 14:14

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think that that's what

Matt: 14:15

Yeah, I love the Forsaken. As a long time follower of campy gay villains, I love what the show has done with them. And so makes the Forsaken so fun. We but I do think one of the things I have a fun fact, followed by sort of some two questions. And we do try to do with them as well is find emotional grounding for them. Even Ishamael and Lanfear in season two, it's always important to us that you kind of like understand where they're coming from. Even Moghedien, who's sort of like most psychotic of them, you know you understand and Laia Costa brings in her performance why she does not like being called weak and and you understand that insecurity in her, and I think you see it at large with Laia's performance on screen too. So we do, you get all the camp of of the Forsaken, which is what we know and love. But. I do think in season three, you also get to understand a little bit more of their emotional underpinnings they're silly questions. So considering that Robert Jordan too, and their relationships with each other, which I think are fascinating. said that between 30 to 50% of the population of Randland is queer. How on earth do you fit straight people into the Wheel of Time show, I mean, that seems like a pretty tall order. And second, it's a challenge. It's a challenge. Sorry, I can let you finish that one. And the second is, and this might be just a watch and find out, but how gay can we expect my favorite forsaken Asmodean to be if he is in the show?

Rafe Judkins: 15:59

Oh, that might be a watch and find out, but I think that, I think that it would be strange if 30 to 50% of the people in the Wheel of Time are gay, and that wouldn't include the Forsaken as well.

Camille: 16:15

And that's it. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Rafe Judkins. I know we had a lot of fun. Obviously, please tune in for the third season of the Wheel of Time coming up on Prime Video on March 13. Like I, I'm recording that the day after the virtual fan screening of the first episode of the season three. I'm still, you know, very emotional about it, and I think we're gonna have a lot of fun with the, with this third season. So yeah, I hope you all are excited. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Queers of Time.As always, you can support us on Patreon, and you can find us on most social media platforms, and by most, I mean Bluesky, Tumblr and Discord. Join our Discord so we can be gay and happy during this third season of the Wheel of Time. And yes, see you next time. Bye. Thank you all for listening. This was Queer of Time, a Wheel of Time podcast. The music is Dance of The witches by Julius H.